By Happy Camper on Jul 31, 2008

-How do Mexicans explain the use of pejorative terms to describe some people?

Well, you answer your own question: Mexicans consider those terms “affectionate”

What’s your take? Are you insulted to be called gringo by a Mexican? I would venture to say that the answer is no. You are not insulted because you realize that they call you gringo as a form of of affection. Mexicans may call you gringo, but the fact of the matter is that Mexicans like you.

HC

By Strika on Jul 31, 2008

David:

I won’t argue about Mexicans being racists. I am pretty sure we are very racists (as racists as everybody else on earth). But the thing with Memín Pingüín and the “Negrito snack” is much more complicated than that. First of all, the context is very different from that of US. In Mexico there is not a big black community, and we don’t have the same racial issues regarding black/white relations. Before the 2005 scandal, I had never thought about Memín Pingüín in that way (and I think I am not the only one).

As for the gringo word, I agree it can be pejorative sometimes. But as most of the words in this world, the fact of being pejorative depends on the context and on the speaker’s intentions. So maybe sometimes it can be an affectionate term and sometimes an insulting one. On the other hand, one of the reasons why I use gringo is because I don’t like to say americanos and norteamericanos (I am americana and norteamericana as well). And estadounidense is not very easy to say. But, then again, my choice of word will depend on the context. First, it is too colloquial and I won’t use it in an academic paper, for example. Second, even if I don’t consider the word to be pejorative, I don’t want to be judged as a racist by people who consider it in that way. So it’s not as simple as that.

Sorry for this long comment, but it’s a subject that interests me a great deal. If you have time, read this post in my blog: http://tripodologia-felina.blogspot.com/2008/06/cuidado-con-lo-que-dices-o-sobre-los.html

Strika

By Susy on Jul 31, 2008

I do not really find any of those things offensive. Strika is correct about the view being different in Mexico than in the US. I do have an issue about the americana identity. Mexicanos are not Americanos. Our country is called Estados Unidos Americanos. Therefore we are Americanos. Mexico is called Estados Unidos Mexicanos, hence the name and proper use of it, Mexicanos. Calling a gringo americano is correct and by him calling himself one does not mean he is trying to step on sensitive toes.

By Suzanne on Jul 31, 2008

Thanks for bringing this up. I think it’s a very interesting discussion.

I agree with Strika that this issue is probably more complicated than you make it out to be. Mexicans are racist but Mexico’s history is different from that of the U.S. and the racism here comes out in different ways. To call someone “negrito” affectionately for Mexicans is like calling them “gordito,” “guërito,” or “chaparrito”: it’s common to call people nicknames according to some aspect of their physical appearance. Gringo is different and depending on the context can be pejorative or just more expedient than the polysyllabic “estadounidense.”

To me a more interesting example is the India Maria movies. Most Mexicans I know seem to love these movies and don’t see them as racist at all, but they show a very stereotypical portrayal of a poor indigenous woman.

Certainly political correctness has not (yet?) arrived in Mexico – which in some ways is refreshing, but often makes me cringe.

By Raymond Johnson on Aug 1, 2008

In “Ask A Mexican!”, Gustavo Arellano wrote that :Mexicans don’t call gringos gringoes. Only gringos call gringos gringos. Mexicans call gringos gabachos” — which was originally a Castilian slur for somebody from France, he says. Is this just a Southern California thing?

Just finishing with “First Stop In The New World” and have really enjoyed this ground level look at life in the DF. The Ringling Museum here in Sarasota, Florida currently has an exhibit that includes Teresa Marolles’s Vaporizacion.

By Frank Gaytán on Aug 1, 2008

Mexicans are absolutely racist and classist. While the terms themselves might be up for debate, and their usage is contextual, the proof is in the (vanilla) pudding: who are the poorest of the poor in Mexico? (and related, what is one of the most pejorative terms one can use in Mexico, hint: starts with an i, ends with an o, and has an indi in the middle) What color are the hair and eyes of the elite?

I was recently in Puebla teaching a study abroad class for NYU students and we had a Mexican professor as a guest speaker (blue eyes, fair skin, snow white hair). He self-identified as a mestizo. The audacious part of his talk which addressed the role of religion in Mexican culture came when he denied any racism in Mexico, unlike the United States. When my students pressed him on this issue, citing the treatment of indigenous people in Mexico, he deferred slightly saying, there acts of hatred in Mexico, but they are not racist, not like slavery in the U.S.

Just as some of the posters here are trying to do, he attempted to absolve Mexico of sin by reflecting the U.S.’s racism back at Americans. But as the saying goes, two wrongs don’t make a right. Treating someone differently based on their phenotype and characterizing him based on stereotypical group characteristics is plain and simple racist, whether it is in the U.S. or Mexico.

By Ben K on Aug 1, 2008

I guess it’s disputable as to whether this is “racist” or not, but I’ve always found it strange that instead of “rizado” to describe someone with curly hair, Mexicans will say they have “pelo chino,” or Chinese hair. And no one seems to be able to explain this.

By La Bibi on Aug 2, 2008

I have been told in Mexico that you can throw all the proverbial f-bombs you want at someone (hecharles la madre)—but DO NOT call someone an indio. Or chancludo.
When I was in Mexico, my uncle told me that if you read the help wanted ads in the DF, some will indicate “Se solicita gente de buena precencia”. I thought meant clean-cut/no facial piercings, but my uncle said it means you must be fair-skinned. I wonder if that is the job requirement for being a telenovela actor or a tv host in Mexico?

Ben K, your comment reminds me of an old play-on-words joke I heard in Mexico: Cuantos chinos hay en la china? Ni uno, porque todos son lasios. (But I digress…….)

By Happy Camper on Aug 2, 2008

“I wonder if that is the job requirement for being a telenovela actor or a tv host in Mexico?”

Do you wonder if there are physical requirements to be an actor or tv host in the US or in any other part of the world for that matter?

HC

By Adriana Degetau on Aug 3, 2008

Los “negritos” de Marinela han estado ahí toda la vida y nunca me había puesto a pensar en eso.
Genial.
Saludos David.

By John Saunders on Aug 4, 2008

David. Good discussion and my comment is
not relevant. Here goes. A Texas student
heard a visitor from Mexico mention the
word “gachupines” and she was horrified.
She thought that he had said:
“got your penis”. All in the eyes of the
beholder. David. Your books are
fantstic! Also *love* the website.
John Saunders (College Station, TX, USA)

By Judy on Aug 5, 2008

Yeah, Mexicans are not racist, and I’m from Missouri.
I think the Negrito snack has been around a long time but it may have been discontinued and then brought back. If I am not mistaken, when I was little, that “negrito” was much more offensive than his new, hip, incarnation. This one looks like a character in the comic strip The Boondocks. At least they refrained from the obvious facial stereotypes a la Memin Pinguin.
However, “te dejará huella” I parse as “it will leave its mark/prints on you” because of the fact that it has a chocolate coating and center that will leave traces on your fingers when you eat it (such is the poetry of marketing). Your translation is a bit more ominous.
I think many Mexicans are under the impression that using the word “negro” to describe a black person is offensive. Hence, negrito. Which of course is much worse. I know a lot of Mexicans who think the word “judío” is also offensive and they go out of their way to call me Israelite, Hebrew, whatever, anything but Jewish.
Recently, I was visited by dear Mexican friends who were utterly surprised that not only did I vote for Barack Obama and I think he has a chance of winning, but that I find him extremely handsome. They knew better than to say or do anything but raise their eyebrows to the heavens.

By Andre on Aug 8, 2008

i think people here neglecting the fact that people are quite racist here are a bit naive. i’m a german living in mexico since 3 years, and i cannot count anymore the moments when people come up to me and – when they found out that i’m german – start giving me crap about hitler being a great leader and so forth. and the bad jews, they have all the money. etc. etc. etc. young people, old people, people of low education, and “licenciados”.

i have never seen an “indio” in a telenovela (nor in television, apart from the naked people on reforma). and when you go out, you will find that most people really try to hard to stress the fact that they made it better than someone else, they dress better or they went to a better school.
my 2 cents, of course it’s not EVERYONE.
but speaking in general about a society, i never lived in a socienty that thinks more in classes and that is openly more rascist than over here. it’s quite sad.

By Happy Camper on Aug 8, 2008

Andre, you are totally out of bounds there my friend and really think you are lying.

And why do blame Mexicans about Hitler? It is you, Andre, who supported and fought on behalf of Hitler.

You never seen an Indio in a telenovela? Have you ever seen a German of Turkish origin in German TV? Turks, or any other immigrant of color, born in Germany are never ever considered German.

Novelas are for entertainment and Indios are better off not being in them.

HC

By Andre on Aug 8, 2008

happy camper, you must be really smart. but be careful of telling i’m a liar. are you actually in mexico? or are you mexican and i did hurt your feelings?

and yes, it was actually ME that supported hitler, 35 years before i was born, and when my parents where 4 years old. i was pre-incarnated to fight together with him, my friend. how did you find out?

btw: many turks in german TV actually. even moderators and VJs. have you been in germany? go to berlin and see how they’re integrated, you’ll be amazed.

one thing that you probably also not know: education in germany is pretty good, that’s why we’re in general maybe quite sensible towards racism. of course there are morons with an IQ similar to your’s that can’t properly read the history books.

cheers man!

hey, make a few rides in a taxi and say you’re german and see what happens. you might need to cite some lyrics of rammstein in order that they believe you. some people just need a trigger, you know? i wouldn’t say these things if i wouldn’t have experienced them. and not one time… like a fucking hundred times!

By Happy Camper on Aug 9, 2008

andre,

i still think that you are lying. you are obsessed with Hitler and see it everywhere. everywhere you go in Mexico people talk about him?! insane. absolutely insane.

Mexico has countless problems, but Hitler is not one of them. the Jewish community is very strong in Mexico and, just like everybody else, it is well-respected, liked and welcome it.

Germany does not give its citizenship to people of color born there and Germany is the impediment for Turkey joining the EU. Fix German’s racism before you cry about Mexico’s.

HC

By Andre on Aug 9, 2008

yes sir, i’ll fix it asap. i’m sorry i didn’t have your great brain in the first place, but now i see all my mistakes. stupid – no, INSANE – me that i dared to comment on something that is not my territory.

so, greets to new jersey/USA, i wish i was born there and wouldn’t carry the everlasting guilt with me. you guys know it all, and of course you have the right to judge the rest of the world from your comfortable sofa. good you follow the news so well on CNN.

By Judy on Aug 9, 2008

What a shitstorm you’ve unleashed, David. (Keep em coming!)
I find this discussion fascinating. Obviously, you touched a very raw nerve.
I’m in the camp of Mexicans are racist.
Forget about gringos or negritos with their attending linguistic justifications.
Just look at how the moneyed white Mexican folk treat the poor and brown Mexican folk. No endearments for them. If they are lucky, they are called naquitos. Or inditos.
It would be cool if the Mexicans who so resist the racism accusation would look around them, swallow hard, and just admit it.
Maybe then things would start changing in Mexico.

By Andre on Aug 9, 2008

and of course there’s racisim in other countrys (including mine) as well, unfortunately. but this was not the topic here.

this guys logic is archaic and counter-productive: instead of listening, he get’s offended and simply neglects facts, combining it with ridiculous stereotyped accusations.

if i’d say to an american that would complain about germany “yeah, but first shut up and look what monkey you have as president, and what about the indian genocide, and the slavery and the KKK”.. or to a turkish guy, happy camper would probably say if he’d be a german: “how do you dare to criticize, liar, so what about woman rights and gay people?”

it’s a childish way of responding, and with this attitude nothing will ever change nor people living abroad will integrate. every problem has it’s right for discussion, but one bad thing doesn’t relativate another one.

as judy says, the best is to face it, name the issues by it’s name, and to make the situation better — everywhere, and for everybody.

and now i’m out here.

By Núria on Aug 10, 2008

Mmm. I dunno. Especially about the first comments to this post. One of my Mexican girlfriends was telling me recently that some other woman driver got upset at her driving and, when they both had to stop at a traffic light, insulted her shouting “negra” to her. My girlfriend has dark hair and dark eyes, but she is definitely not black. To those that are so sure “negrito” is purely an endearment in Mexico: what do you make of that?

By Anna on Aug 12, 2008

I’m a white lady who lives most of the year in the profoundly racist country that is the United States, though I live two months out of the year in Mexico City, the capital of another profoundly racist country.

Of course, both countries have such different histories and racism functions so differently in each, that it is not necessarily productive to compare them, except to say that in both, white people still hold most of the money, power, and mobility.

Although the “Negrito” snack cakes and images of Memín Pinguín would never fly in the 21st century in the United States (which, for the record, doesn’t mean that racism agaist black people has been eliminated), we still have our own marks of shame. The logo for the Cleveland Indians, perhaps?

Just because these types of images have become so ubiquitous that most Mexicans and Americans don’t even think about how racist they are doesn’t make them OK. Both Mexico and the United States have a long way to go in “admitting” the racism that we live in and/or perpetuate every day, and I second Suzanne in saying that admitting is an important first step.

I can’t stand it when people use “politically correct” as an insult. If “political correctness” means making an effort to use respectful language and images, then why try to mark that behavior as damning? I suppose it’s not as hip as watching a Quentin Tarantino movie and relishing as his white characters use the forbidden “n word” over and over and over again. Give me a break. Can political correctness become a nauseating competition between white people trying to win the “best anti-racist ally” contect? Of course. Does that mean we should grin pleasantly at how “refreshing” the absence of political correctness in Mexico is? Of course not.

Also, David, I think you opened a real can of worms by bringing the word “gringo” into this. I really don’t think you can compare Mexicans’ use of the word “negrito” to their use of the word “gringo”. The power dynamics are not at all alike, and unfortunately you come off as whiney (whether you really have the audacity to be offended by the word “gringo” or not).

Also:
“Novelas are for entertainment and Indios are better off not being in them.”
Please, leave your paternalism at home. It’s about representation, dignity, and smashing the idea that it is ugly to be brown, to be short, to have “indio” features. Of course there are physical requirements to be on television, but if those requirements are racist, then, like the Negrito snack cakes, they those requirements are not “OK.”

By Nita on Aug 15, 2008

I have been called ‘negrita’ but not negrito plenty of times when being talked about by my Mexican neighbors. I live in Houston where there is a large Mexican community, complete with their own supermarket. I am black with a lot of Indian heritage and it shows. Men of every race pay attention to me, which is annoying lots of times. The Mexicans here are basically racist and think they are superior to me by race. They think they are Spaniards, call themselves ‘Spanish’ and if you tell them they are Indians or Mestizos, they get extremely offended. Regardless of the brown skin, Asian hair,(buzz cuts included) body shape of the Indian, they will insist they are Spanish. I find that highly irritating. A few of them do look like they have a lot of Spanish blood, but most don’t. I tell them that Spaniards are white people and they are not and the prejudice they suffer is not due to language, but to race. I tell them even if they were Spaniards that wouldn’t make them superior to me. That really gets them mad, but I don’t like the superiority notion. I keep having to tell them that I am not ‘half Spanish’. Pregunteles los gentes porque.

By Vero on Aug 20, 2008

Los mexicanos definitivamente somos racistas. La palabra “naco” y el término “gente bien” lo dicen todo. Pero es un racismo de dos vías, no sólo hacia los morenos o descendientes de indígenas, sino de ellos hacia los “blancos”. Mi familia es la perfecta muestra de la mezcla genética de México: abuelos franceses y españoles casados con mexicanas de ascendencia italiana/alemana o indígena (Tlaxcala). En nuestro caso predominaron tanto el apellido como los genes “europeos”. Ojos azules, tez blanca, pelo rubio, etc. Suficiente para ser visto con desprecio y una gran carga de resentimiento social por parte de los “morenos”. Como si ser güero en este país significara haber participado en la guerra de la conquista, por ahí de 1521. O sinónimo también de riqueza (“pinche guerito burgués”). Suficiente también para que cualquier trámite gubernamental se lleve más tiempo de lo necesario, y para recibir miradas de odio en cualquier transporte público. En fin… Cuestión de perspectiva.

By jorge on Aug 28, 2008

Your translation of “te dejará huella” as “more or less, ‘it will leave its shadow on you’ “, is wrong. ‘Huella’ means ‘print’ or ‘mark’ (as in ‘footprint’) – what the phrase means is that the cake in question will make a good impression on the customer. I see nothing racist in that.

Are Latin American societies racist? You bet they are – and those who are free of sin should be welcome to cast the first stone (not sure the US qualifies – within many people’s lifetime segregation was enshrined by law in many parts!).

LatAmerican racism is perhaps a naive, paternalistic form of racism (not the militant, KKK sort), but it is racism nonetheless and should be exposed for what it is.

By Luis on Sep 18, 2008

Really smart of you guys to generalize like that… “Mexicans are racist.” Really smart. I’m sure you couldn’t find one who wasn’t even if you tried. Heck, while we’re at it, why don’t we bring a few more generalizations out in the open… “Mexicans are lazy.” “Mexicans are short, chubby and have brown skin.” “Mexicans are ignorant.” “Mexicans are corrupt.” “Mexicans are greedy.” “Mexicans are inept.”

And we’re not supposed to respond defensively to such a load of c__p? Please! Show me the statistics where it says our population has a higher incidence of racism than other countries and then we’ll have something to talk about. I guess one rotten apple spoils the whole barrel.

By Ms. Logic on Sep 26, 2008

Happy Campers says: “Germany does not give its citizenship to people of color born there and Germany is the impediment for Turkey joining the EU. Fix German’s racism before you cry about Mexico’s”. Perhaps the reason why they and many other European nations haven’t bothered implementing assimilation programs is due to the fact that these ‘temporary guest workers’ were expected to be in Europe, well, temporarily and like a guest, assumed that they would come and go. Please, read the treaties/contracts between the European host nations and the labor supply nations like the May 14, 1969 Dutch-Moroccan workers contract. This contract/treaty like other ones, in clear language, stipulates their temporary guest status. Even the United Nations recognized these contracts/treaties and their stipulations. And yet these internationally recognized, formalized agreements were broken! No wonder Germany isn’t granting them citizenship because otherwise, they would be rewarding lawbreakers. Is that logical/reasonable? A Mexican migrant worker once told me that in America ‘common sense, isn’t common anymore!’. Common sense thus tells me and hopefully others that we must now rely on reason and logic and not sensationalism, passions, feelings, instincts, etc. anymore to make our decisions and choices. Hence, why should Germany or Holland, etc. cater the Turks, Moroccans, etc. who have broken the law? Are you a landlord by any chance? What if you sign a legally binding agreement stipulating how long a tenant can stay and how much they must pay for rent; and yet when the contract expires; the delinquent tenants do not leave. Does not the landlord have the legal, rational, moral, guiltless right to kick them out? Or should the landlord start offering the delinquent(s) all sorts of awards; giving them tacit signs of respect? What would this mean to many other societies, civilizations, etc? Would it imply that it’s alright to break the law and get away with it? The problem is that you’re not a stupid person; you have potential! It’s just that unfortunately,you, like many more people have been conditioned to think in a very narrow minded way where logic and reason isn’t exercised anymore. The culprits are the public schools/academia and media. They don’t stress logical reasoning anymore. Now feelings, passions, instincts, sensationalism, etc. is the norm. And that’s the problem. It just breeds bias and subjectivity. Only then does it become difficult to find common accord. Thus, chaos emerges. And yet, logic and reason is what unites us all as human beings. Actually, it’s what gives us our human identity. It’s what separates us from the animals and yet we are dumbing down to the level of animals nowadays. And sadly, that’s why common sense isn’t common anymore.

By moruna on Oct 22, 2008

En mi país, negro, negrito, negrita, son, en efectos, motes de cariño que se le otorgan a los amigos, a la familia, a la gente que te cae bien y por la que hay cierto afecto.

Yo, por mi parte, profiero esos motes a diestra y siniestra entre mis queridos… a esto se suma que a quienes somo morenos -morochos en argentino- nos dicen negros.

Yo en mi mundo, soy la Negra o la Morocha, y me queda clarísimo, todos me lo dicen con la mejor intención, y lo disfruto.

A lo que voy es: si, discriminamos y cada vez más, en Argentina, en México, USA, Europa… probablemente con diferentes niveles de sutileza y asentando nuestro racismo en los diferentes aspectos significativos a cada sociedad -clase, raza, formación, estética-.

Pero esto tiene que ver con cuestiones más complejas como la construcción histórica del mundo, de la perspectiva sobre lo diferente y la propia identidad… lo que se refleja, hoy en día de manera ya incosciente y repetitiva, en los términos que las acompañan y describen -en México indio o gringo, en Argentina peruca o yankee, en Europa sudaca, en USA nigger-.

Entonces, habría que empezar a pensar justamente en la historia que esconde cada uno de esos términos, en su significado, y en sus efectos a corto y largo plazo en la manera en que vivimos y nos tratamos entre nosotros, claro, pero también en cuestiones de mayor alcance, ¿algunos ejemplos? la reelección de bush, la reelección de menem y el corralito argentino, los 72 años de “la dictadura perfecta” del PRI en México, el gatillo fácil en toda américa latina, Columbine, etecé, etecé.

By eric on Oct 26, 2008

Non non, you have it wrong. Negrito’s are delicious and I have not found them here in the US for obvious reasons. I don’t know how you got that negrito is equivalent to the N word, no way. Negrito like you said is a term of endearment, it’s kind of derogatory but it’s just what some people and mind you Im sure it’s the less educated, to call black people. There’s not a substantial presence of black people in Mexico, except for the coasts, Veracruz comes to mind. As far as Memin goes, it’s a kids comic book, it’s nothing like your zambo, it’s not meant to be racist. Who are you hanging out with? franchutes?! and gachupines is like never used, get some new friends.